General, NXIVM

Guest View: I Attended a NXIVM Weekend in 1999; I Wasn’t Impressed

02/08/2022·

Guest View

This is a guest view by an individual who attended a NXIVM weekend in 1999.

By a Guy Who Was There

I did a one day / weekend Nxivm intro in 1999 with a fellow SUNY Albany alum. He was curious because he was involved with Neurolinguistic Programming [NLP] and I hadn’t seen him in a decade so I joined him.

Keith Raniere and Nancy Salzman in 1998

John Grinder is one of the founders of Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP), which is described as a pseudoscientific approach to personal development. Nancy Salzman claims to have studied with Grinder.

What I took away was that their technology was stolen from other groups: Rational Emotive and Cognitive Therapy, EST, The Forum, NLP and Scientology.

Albert Ellis (pictured) is the founder of Rational Emotive Therapy, a type of psychotherapy to help people to lead happier lives, developed in the mid-1950s.

L Ron Hubbard is the founder of Scientology.

Furthermore, they claimed their leader was the smartest man in the world when there is no such thing as a “smartest man”. Scientists have been arguing about the definition and parameters of intelligence along with the difficulties of measurement for decades. It made NXIVM look foolish to claim ownership over something that was undefinable to begin with.

I had a good day/weekend but I said: “No thanks”.

Keith Alan Raniere teaching a NXIVM intensive in 1998.

I thought everyone would see through them as I and my friend did; and drop away quickly. I never suspected this fledgling organization would grow into a force that would terrorize dissidents, influence upstate NY politics, judicial proceedings, law enforcement, media and beyond.

I had forgot about them completely until Frank Report surfaced on my radar somehow in 2017.

Frank Report came on the scene and made a few people aware of NXIVM.

What alerted me? They never seemed honest. They never gave credit to the other ‘technologies’ that they borrowed their program from. They flouted a leader who could not be what they claimed because that person does not exist. They demanded loyalty (bowing to the leader) when what they needed to be doing is giving love away freely.

Vanguard Week was a 10-day retreat dedicated to celebrating the Vanguard.

Comments (24)

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Steven Watson02/08/2022

Yes. To most people, cult BS is easy to sniff out and walk away from. Some idiots proceed to eat the turds.

AnonyMaker02/08/2022

Thanks for sharing that interesting and informative personal perspective. The previous influences you cite were, part of the whole milieu of the human potential movement of the 1960s and early 1970s, which borrowed from earlier sources ranging from Buddhism to Dale Carnegie (and Napoleon Hill), and then in turn cross-pollinated in a myriad of ways that make it impossible to pin down any clear lineage, including then on to the next generation of groups that followed, like NXIVM (exemplifying that complexity, see chart at end). NLP was definitely a clear and direct source that NXIVM drew from, along with Scientology, from which they borrowed specific terminology and concepts such as 'suppressive' persons. Grinder gave, or was part of, many NLP training workshops of short to medium duration, and I haven't seen any evidence Salzman did anything more than those, though she studied or worked more extensively with a more minor figure in the East coast NLP community; and she had also studied Ericksonian hypnosis, itself the precursor to NLP. Given where NXIVM was located I think it's highly likely that Raniere and probably Salzman as well would have known and picked things up from people who had done former Scientology Elmira, NY mission holder Harry Palmer's Avatar courses, which fused ideas from his earlier affiliation, with the large group training (LGAT) format best known from (though hardly unique to) est/Landmark; it's thus possible that elements you recognize as seeming to be from that latter source, come second hand through the former group, that's how muddled these relationships get. Here's a chart that gets at the complexity, suggesting that Tony Robbins (who also puts on what could be described as LGATs, especially with his fire walking) rather than Harry Palmer is the intermediary between Erhard's est/Landmark and NXIVM — which is one way to look at it, and perhaps it was both Robbins and Palmer: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/NXIVM_influences.png

Nutjob02/08/2022

Robbins is way more important to Keith's path than has been discussed on Frank Report. Keith hated Robbins. Robbins had an office next to Toni Natalie in Albany. Robbins wouldn't give Keith the time of day. But (according to Keith), Robbins would hit on Toni, right in front of Keith. With their proximity and the success Robbins was having, I'm sure Keith pilfered every ounce of value he could find from Robbins. I noticed many similarities in the original 20 modules.

Nice Guy02/09/2022

Awesome story, NutJob! Hope all is well.

AnonyMaker02/11/2022

Nutjob, fascinating that Robbins had operations in the Albany area and crossed paths with Natalie. I had no idea. And, it shows what a small world it is when it comes to things like this. I wonder if it points to the Albany area being more of a nexus for for this sort of ideas and groups than might be obvious. Whatever you want to say about Robbins, he is professional, focused and well-organized. He obviously recognized the grungy guru Raniere for the hack he really was. Robbins also provides a contrast that reminds us that Raniere never really did get the “executive” angle down, After snagging a couple of known names early on, probably mostly due to lucky connections, he never really got beyond attracting low-level wannabe managers and salespeople, plus some heirs and heiresses who probably wanted to find ways to seem important in the shadow of their parents.

Namaste02/08/2022

Stumbled across these NLP certifications. If someone wishes to explore NLP and even become a practitioner, this course is recognized by the Complementary Medical Association. It does have me wondering who the experts are that designed these NLP certificates and if any of them have NXIVM affiliations or influences, especially since Rational Inquiry is used. For $200, one can go find out and report back on the experience. Hoping to read this article on FR! https://www.centreofexcellence.com/shop/nlp-practitioner-courses/

AnonyMaker02/09/2022

Thanks for that. One thing it exemplifies, is that there are more relatively short NLP trainings people can pay for that provide “diplomas”, practitioner “certifications”, etc., than you can shake a stick at. It's interesting that rational inquiry turns out to be a term used in the NLP world. That's almost certainly because Raniere borrowed it, not because he introduced it through NXIVM. I find that it has roots in the late 19th century, from the same era, if not the same milieu, of the New Thought Movement that also spawned Theosophy, Christian Science, etc.: > http://www.commens.org/dictionary/term/rational-inquiry And it was popularized more recently by Noam Chomsky, another seminal figure from the same era as the human potential movement and all its figures, gurus, groups, trainings, etc.: > https://chomsky.info/1995____02/ That's actually a pretty typical lineage, origins in the late half on the 19th century, and resurrection of interest and use in the later middle of the last century. Plus there was a less prominent but still influential period of early 20th century continuance or resurgence, exemplified for instance by Rudolph Steiner's Anthroposophy (with roots in Theosophy and, less obviously, 19th century occultism) and his Waldorf schools (a direct influence on Raniere), etc.. And that illuminates how it's also often virtually impossible to tease out whether someone using a concept in the 1960s and 1970s got it through a contemporary translator like Chomsky, or through direct knowledge of earlier sources, though anyone coming after that is almost always drawing from human potential and counter-culture era sources. Raniere may have been granted a dubious patent on a “rational inquiry method”, which doesn't mean he invented rational inquiry itself; typically, however, it was spun to followers to imply that it was entirely his original work. Similarly, Scientology's L. Ron Hubbard had a knack for positioning himself to take, and be given, credit for a lot that he just got from others.

Manny02/08/2022

The Forum is also know as Landmark.

Manny02/08/2022

Also heard Executive Success Programs had ties to Epstein and Weinstein.

shadowstate195802/08/2022

For starters this is a picture of Charles Nelson Reilly, a rather “fey” character actor of the sixties and seventies. https://i0.wp.com/frankreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/1999-attendee-.jpg?resize=283%2C300&ssl=1 Frank, next time choose a picture of the more masculine Paul Lynde. And if you ever need a picture of me please use this classic photo of Orson Welles as the Shadow. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/WellesShadow.jpg As for all of this talk of self-help and neuro-linguistic programming, from the 2018 comments on the Frank Report a person, supposedly Allison Mack's mother, claimed that Ms. Mack was interested in self-help books. I would respectfully request that anyone interested in self-help do their research and avoid self-help programs that resemble cults. Inside the Actors Studio: Charles Nelson Reilly – Saturday Night Live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NanA8PQ1-1w

Anonymous02/08/2022

“I had a good day/weekend but I said: “No thanks”. I guess he wasn't interested because 1999 was before all the Vancouver actresses and their orgies.

Nutjob02/09/2022

Well, if the material wasn't what it was promised to be, there should have been something else to snag marks…? Maybe if there weren't enough hot chicks and/or celebrities to parade around, they should have pitched pyramid scheme riches? Or midnight volleyball? naw – forget that one. No worries – Keith soon learned how to better grow his company.

Anonymous02/09/2022

Yeah, it's called convincing two very rich gullible idiots to fund his operation and then everyone being enamored by the clout of the Bronfman name, including the uneducated, naive minor celebrities who came on board after them. It was just surrounding himself with a bunch of myths and lies that no one really decided to fact check on even though there was PLENTY of information out there, especially from Rick Ross (who turned out to be very right). Otherwise, like all his other business endeavors, it would have failed shortly within some years.

Caitlin Long02/09/2022

I'm a woman in love with Keith. He's dreamy and just my style.

Comments (24)

Add Your Comment

Steven Watson02/08/2022

Yes. To most people, cult BS is easy to sniff out and walk away from. Some idiots proceed to eat the turds.

AnonyMaker02/08/2022

Nutjob02/08/2022

Nice Guy02/09/2022

Awesome story, NutJob! Hope all is well.

AnonyMaker02/11/2022

Namaste02/08/2022

AnonyMaker02/09/2022

Manny02/08/2022

The Forum is also know as Landmark.

Manny02/08/2022

Also heard Executive Success Programs had ties to Epstein and Weinstein.

shadowstate195802/08/2022

Anonymous02/08/2022

“I had a good day/weekend but I said: “No thanks”. I guess he wasn't interested because 1999 was before all the Vancouver actresses and their orgies.

Nutjob02/09/2022

Anonymous02/09/2022

Caitlin Long02/09/2022

I'm a woman in love with Keith. He's dreamy and just my style.